Curse

tmakinen · Aug 21, 2007, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Arcane, your scenario and classification would be wonderful if all the players were adult and relatively well versed in English but that doesn't happen to be the case. There is a good reason for why minors can't sign a legally binding contract - the necessary amount of rational thought and understanding of consequences may not be there yet. My son (age 11) has only a very basic command of English language and most if not all online help pages are beyond his abilities. If you have children of that age, you'll know that their take on epistemology is very straightforward - most of the time they believe what they are told if it doesn't directly contradict their experience. He used to play Runescape for several months with his real life friends until somebody scammed him out of basically everything that he had acquired. That was enough for him to stop playing altogether. I know that some people would consider that a valuable lesson, expect that he didn't or indeed couldn't learn what he did wrong. With the resources he had, the only way for him to be safe from scamming would've been to avoid all contact with other players, and what would be the point of playing a MMORPG then?

What I'm trying to say is that some people have a very good reason to be gullible. There are kids out there. Don't steal their candy and try to make sure that nobody else is doing that either

shanaya · Aug 21, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

While I generally believe in the principal of 'caveat emptor' (let the buyer beware) any form of dishonesty or trickery on the part of the seller, even if unlikely to succeed, deserves condemnation and if repeated I would hope would lead to a ban - though that is unlikely in this case.

To say that someone deserves to be scammed as a result of their ignorance or stupidity is......well, i'm amazed that anyone could feel that way.

In pre-searing Ascalon you can still from time to time see people trying to rip off new players by selling them armour. Unlikely that many would fall for this, but it is still despicable.

Naylyn · Aug 21, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

To all those who claim that people will never underestimate human stupidity or capacity to make mistakes, consider all of the credit cards scams that people fall for (send us your credit card number and if its lucky...)

arcanemacabre · Aug 21, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Arcane, your scenario and classification would be wonderful if all the players were adult and relatively well versed in English but that doesn't happen to be the case. There is a good reason for why minors can't sign a legally binding contract - the necessary amount of rational thought and understanding of consequences may not be there yet. My son (age 11) has only a very basic command of English language and most if not all online help pages are beyond his abilities. If you have children of that age, you'll know that their take on epistemology is very straightforward - most of the time they believe what they are told if it doesn't directly contradict their experience. He used to play Runescape for several months with his real life friends until somebody scammed him out of basically everything that he had acquired. That was enough for him to stop playing altogether. I know that some people would consider that a valuable lesson, expect that he didn't or indeed couldn't learn what he did wrong. With the resources he had, the only way for him to be safe from scamming would've been to avoid all contact with other players, and what would be the point of playing a MMORPG then?

What I'm trying to say is that some people have a very good reason to be gullible. There are kids out there. Don't steal their candy and try to make sure that nobody else is doing that either

First of all, 11 years old is below the recommended age for a game like Guild Wars and many other MMOs. I would certainly suggest he not play till he's older. Would I forbid him? No. But I would suggest it. If he can't handle it, he shouldn't have to try and handle it. It's a game after all.

Secondly, any amount of lying and abuse of gullibility would be effective. This scam would not be limited to a simple graphic similarity. You seem to suggest that someone like your son really should avoid contact with others, since anyone can lie to him and get him to essentially hand over whatever they want. How else would you suggest avoiding situations like these?

tmakinen · Aug 21, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

any amount of lying and abuse of gullibility would be effective

This is precisely my point

As to how it can be avoided - unfortunately, I don't believe that it can be completely avoided. I'm just saying that people with the attitude that people 'deserve' to get scammed are part of the problem instead of the solution. There are some scams that genuinely ride on greed and stupidity (always a dangerous combination) like that middleman scam where one WTS's an item at X platinum and simultaneously other WTB's the same item at X + Y platinum but most scams target people whose only fault is that they are gullible. "I bought this 7-11 tribal sword with all my money because the seller said that it's really really good". You'd be amazed to see what kind of silly (but innocent) trades children do between each other, and when somebody takes advantage of that with a malicious intent there are no redeeming qualities in that act. And the "don't do it if you don't have what it takes" is just a twist on "caveat emptor". In the real life, if my son gets scammed there are laws and people to enforce those laws so that the damage can be undone, and my son can learn the lesson "a scammer is stupid because at the end he only harms himself". I wouldn't want to teach him the alternative "the one who's scammed is stupid because at the end he only harms himself". It boils down to whether, by default, you trust or distrust other people.

boko · Aug 21, 2007, 11:58 AM // 11:58

No matter how you look at it, the situation the OP presented is clearly a scam. No Ifs or buts. Stupidity or ignorance apart, this is a scam.

Can't believe people's thoughts on this subject and who think that this is not a scam. It's because of this type of mentality that scammers and dupers still exist in the game. People who are trying to take advantage of the other players should be banned for the better of the community, if ever there was any community left ,that is...

Now on the degree of the ban, I agree that this is clearly not a serious offense, but should be bannable. Someone trying to scam someone is defintely more annoying than the guy who is spamming WTS in local chat, which is a bannable offense btw. I would say a light temporary ban is justified in this case.

R!ghteous Ind!gnation · Aug 21, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

As long as people will be greedy (forever)... there will always be scams.

Ghost Omel · Aug 21, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

AS it was sad before let the buyer be aware for example its a diferent scenario you got a gold weapon you know thats it costs 10k lets say you starting to sell it and you mistype 20k and yopu got a buyer what would uou do i think you ould rtake 20k and not say oh no sorry its 10k Please 1 i dont think its a scam there 2 I BET you will take the 20K 3 LET the buyer be aware

So in this case if you ARE dumb enaugh to buy it without any knowldage then sorry honney IT IS YOUR foult and that person just got 5K richer

boko · Aug 21, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

AS it was sad before let the buyer be aware for example its a diferent scenario you got a gold weapon you know thats it costs 10k lets say you starting to sell it and you mistype 20k and yopu got a buyer what would uou do i think you ould rtake 20k and not say oh no sorry its 10k Please 1 i dont think its a scam there 2 I BET you will take the 20K 3 LET the buyer be aware

So in this case if you ARE dumb enaugh to buy it without any knowldage then sorry honney IT IS YOUR foult and that person just got 5K richer

Wrong comparison.

The Op presentation is closer to a situation where a seller sell a piece of plastic junk and pretend it to be a diamond, and asking for the price of a diamond. That is a scam. He pretends something but sells something else.

In your comparison, you are selling an item. You say what is the item, and the item you sell is exactly what you said it was. No scam there. Now what the buyer wants to pay or not is up to him, since there is no set price. But then, even if there was a set price, that still would not be a scam. The seller, in that case you, did not lie about the item. Whether the buyer is desperate to buy it, that is his problem. Your comparison is not suited in this case.

GrendelScout1 · Aug 21, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I don’t post often, but every now and again I’ll notice a disturbing trend, and will have to login and provide some “enlightenment”.

What troubles me is the cavalier attitude, coming from regular forum posters from whom I wouldn’t have expected hearing this, towards taking advantage of people in the game, regardless of how serious the violation is perceived to be.

Yes, yes, I know, caveat emptor, and a fool and his money… blah blah blah. Also, to the people who are claiming this is a game and not real life, so therefore are apparently given license to conduct themselves in whatever f’d up manner, free from reprisal, well, I would say that I feel pity for you shameful people. Pity for the day that karma is gonna come along and take a big chunk out of your ass.

I’m going to provide some random analogous examples, because analogies are fun. Tell me what the common theme is behind these unique situations.

- Your sister’s/cousin’s/child’s soccer coach happens to be an unregistered sex offender, and proceeds to do the things a child molester will do, to your family member.
- You buy some dog food, and within a week your dog dies of internal organ failure.
- Your grandma, who’s on a fixed income, receives a phone call from a person claiming to be from a government agency, and is asked for her personal information in order to assist her with some new changes to her medicare policy.
- Someone tries to sell you something, claiming its authenticity, and offers a seemingly good deal (torment gems, certified pre-owned used car, oceanfront property in Nevada, etc.).

Ok, let’s see, what is the common theme here? Are people are being taken advantage of? Yes. Are these people victims of fraudulent/deceitful/scam-like practices? More or less. Are these extreme, uncommon, unrealistic scenarios? Not really.

Is your grandma stupid for not wholly understanding potential changes to her medicare policy and a giant noob for divulging information to a “helpful (fraudulent) government agency”? Is your sister an idiot for trusting her soccer coach? Are you foolish because you didn’t trace where every ingredient in your dog’s food originated from? Do all these people deserve to be victimized?

Just because there are (sadly) legitimate industries (insurance companies, for one) who make their living scamming the public, and at the same time, illegal operations who manage to conduct fraudulent/deceitful/harmful practices for a while (until they are busted), it does not entitle, nor enable, nor give permission to people to conduct themselves similarly.

Nor are the scam-ee’s or would-be-victims excused either. It is everyone’s responsibility and in their best interests to become more knowledgeable of that which they may not be familiar, and to do their best at protecting themselves from scammers and their ilk. Willful ignorance or genuine naievety will not shelter you from the predatory antics of would-be con artists, whether in-game, or in real life. Sure, that may sound a bit harsh for a 13 year old or an elderly grandparent, but it’s still the truth.

I wonder about the people who insist that it’s acceptable to behave like an ass in game, because it’s a game and not real life. I have a hard time believing that these defenders of the asshat behavior in game aren’t really confusing the so-called differences in reality. For example, where do these forums stand on the reality planes? I would think it’s safe to conclude, that if you are an ass in the forums, you are probably an ass in the game. Therefore, since you are an ass in the forums, why wouldn’t you be an ass in real life? How far of a stretch then is it to believe that someone who enjoys their internet anonymity, and behaves like a shit in the game, wouldn’t wholly endorse shitful behavior out in the real world, apart from inciting someone to kick their teeth in, notwithstanding. I only hope, that one day eventually, these people will grow up.

I’m all for more bans, after all, they are only a revocation of privileges, like getting a driver’s license suspended. More and stricter enforcement of the existing rules would hopefully discourage people from violating them in the first place, however, the existing reporting feature is cumbersome, and it’s not surprising why people get away with their bad behavior. I’m not going to entirely blame A-Net, but this certainly contributes to the hooliganism which is rampant in the game. I hope they can fix this for GW2.

natuxatu · Aug 21, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Yeah this really isn't a scam or it's the lowest type of scam. Anyone in their right mind would roll over the item to make sure it is exactly what they want.

Darkobra · Aug 21, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I love the attitudes here. Let's not ban the scammer! Let's ban the scammed! It's their own fault! You got shot by a mad gunner? Your fault for being there! You're offended by my post? Tough! Your fault for reading it!

Healers Wisper · Aug 21, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

wow this thread and the attitudes on it are rediculous. I can't belive that some people actually belive this crap about you get what you deserve if your dumb.

Here let me Draw some real life analogies that might desturb some people but follow the same mind set:

"Its not the sellers fault but the buyers for being stupid enough to be scammed."

"It not the owners fault his dog wasn't on a leash and mauled the kid, its the kids fault for playing with the dog and being too stupid to stay away"

" its not the speeding drivers fault he ran the kid over in the residential area, its the kids fault for being too stupid to look before entering the street" can sub this for parents not watching kid outside too

The worst for this mindset
"Its not the rapist fault, she was dressed all sexy and turned him on"

Give me a GD break, I dont care how stupid people are, scamming is wrong. Knowingly selling an item as something else is wrong. Call it what it is and not trying to justify this behavior because it is flat out wrong.

Enko · Aug 21, 2007, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Omel

AS it was sad before let the buyer be aware for example its a diferent scenario you got a gold weapon you know thats it costs 10k lets say you starting to sell it and you mistype 20k and yopu got a buyer what would uou do i think you ould rtake 20k and not say oh no sorry its 10k Please 1 i dont think its a scam there 2 I BET you will take the 20K 3 LET the buyer be aware

So in this case if you ARE dumb enaugh to buy it without any knowldage then sorry honney IT IS YOUR foult and that person just got 5K richer

scam: stating something that is false about your item in hopes of finding an unsuspecting customer.

your situation: overpricing an item while correctly stating what it is. not a scam

Kuldebar Valiturus · Aug 21, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I sold Thunderhead Keep to another player for 25k once, but it wasn't a scam, the player can go there any time he wants.

Stupidity and ignorance are their own rewards, this is true.

But, regardless, willfully misrepresenting something by definition is a scam.

If item inventories and chat logs indicate that fraudulent conduct has occurred, then ANet will probably take action.

HawkofStorms · Aug 21, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

I love the attitudes here. Let's not ban the scammer! Let's ban the scammed! It's their own fault! You got shot by a mad gunner? Your fault for being there! You're offended by my post? Tough! Your fault for reading it!

That's not what people are saying at all. I agree that the scammer should be temp banned and did something wrong. But its still the buyers fault for falling for it.

The main point is that this scam is going to remain uncommon because only the greedy (who would try to turn the cheap "gem" around for a higher price) or the ignorant or very young (who don't know any better) would fall for it. Thus, this isn't exactly a very common scam. Our point is, you won't see people trying to do this non-stop because the numbers of people who would fall for this remain small.

Miss Puddles · Aug 21, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

I sold Thunderhead Keep to another player for 25k once, but it wasn't a scam, the player can go there any time he wants.

rofl.
ok maybe not technically a scam but certainly deceitful. was this to brag about or what?

ducktape · Aug 21, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

Stupidity and ignorance are their own rewards, this is true.

But, regardless, willfully misrepresenting something by definition is a scam.

If item inventories and chat logs indicate that fraudulent conduct has occurred, then ANet will probably take action.

QFT

And for people saying that only retards would fall for this scam and they deserve it for not looking up enslavement stones on wiki, here's a perfectly valid way you could get scammed because you just don't know there is a way to look up what an enslavement stone is on a forum or a wiki, which a lot of players don't know.

CasualPlayer is standing in town.
TradeScammer PMs CasualPlayer and says "Hey wanna buy some enslavement stones?"
CasualPlayer says "What do they do?"
TradeScammers says "If you get to the end of Nightfall you can trade them for cool weapons"
CasualPlayer has never beaten the game yet and says "Oh, maybe I might buy one. How much are they?"
TradeScammer says "Only 5k, want one?"
CasualPlayer says "Hmm description says it's worth 30 gold"
TradeScammer says "Yeah but have you ever gotten a green weapon? They're hard to get and the description says it's worth 50 gold and other players will buy it for 30k. These enslavement stones are the same way, hard to get and the merchant values them for dirt"
CasualPlayer says "Oh I get it. Well 5k doesn't sound bad for something I can trade for a weapon, I'll buy one of those stones from you"

Is CasualPlayer a retard in that scenario? No, they just have no idea what an enslavement stone really is and they have no idea what a wiki or a forum is and they got talked into buying something they don't need by someone who misrepresented what an item does. It can happen to anyone who does not use wikis or forums, which a large portion of the player base does not know exists, and that's why ANet gives at least a temporary ban for any kind of trade scamming.

ShadowsRequiem · Aug 21, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducktape

QFT

And for people saying that only retards would fall for this scam and they deserve it for not looking up enslavement stones on wiki, here's a perfectly valid way you could get scammed because you just don't know there is a way to look up what an enslavement stone is on a forum or a wiki, which a lot of players don't know.

CasualPlayer is standing in town.
TradeScammer PMs CasualPlayer and says "Hey wanna buy some enslavement stones?"
CasualPlayer says "What do they do?"
TradeScammers says "If you get to the end of Nightfall you can trade them for cool weapons"
CasualPlayer has never beaten the game yet and says "Oh, maybe I might buy one. How much are they?"
TradeScammer says "Only 5k, want one?"
CasualPlayer says "Hmm description says it's worth 30 gold"
TradeScammer says "Yeah but have you ever gotten a green weapon? They're hard to get and the description says it's worth 50 gold and other players will buy it for 30k. These enslavement stones are the same way, hard to get and the merchant values them for dirt"
CasualPlayer says "Oh I get it. Well 5k doesn't sound bad for something I can trade for a weapon, I'll buy one of those stones from you"

Is CasualPlayer a retard in that scenario? No, they just have no idea what an enslavement stone really is and they have no idea what a wiki or a forum is and they got talked into buying something they don't need by someone who misrepresented what an item does. It can happen to anyone who does not use wikis or forums, which a large portion of the player base does not know exists, and that's why ANet gives at least a temporary ban for any kind of trade scamming.

Thanks, its nice to seem some people understand and care.

Legendary Shiz · Aug 22, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducktape

QFT

And for people saying that only retards would fall for this scam and they deserve it for not looking up enslavement stones on wiki, here's a perfectly valid way you could get scammed because you just don't know there is a way to look up what an enslavement stone is on a forum or a wiki, which a lot of players don't know.

CasualPlayer is standing in town.
TradeScammer PMs CasualPlayer and says "Hey wanna buy some enslavement stones?"
CasualPlayer says "What do they do?"
TradeScammers says "If you get to the end of Nightfall you can trade them for cool weapons"
CasualPlayer has never beaten the game yet and says "Oh, maybe I might buy one. How much are they?"
TradeScammer says "Only 5k, want one?"
CasualPlayer says "Hmm description says it's worth 30 gold"
TradeScammer says "Yeah but have you ever gotten a green weapon? They're hard to get and the description says it's worth 50 gold and other players will buy it for 30k. These enslavement stones are the same way, hard to get and the merchant values them for dirt"
CasualPlayer says "Oh I get it. Well 5k doesn't sound bad for something I can trade for a weapon, I'll buy one of those stones from you"

Is CasualPlayer a retard in that scenario? No, they just have no idea what an enslavement stone really is and they have no idea what a wiki or a forum is and they got talked into buying something they don't need by someone who misrepresented what an item does. It can happen to anyone who does not use wikis or forums, which a large portion of the player base does not know exists, and that's why ANet gives at least a temporary ban for any kind of trade scamming.

Is the "TradScammer" in the clear for ripping the guy off? No, don't get me wrong.

But if you're buying something that you have NO clue about, and you get scammed you have nobody to blame but yourself. Is he at the end of the game? Nope, he has no idea what he's buying. He got suckered into buying something that at that point in time, didn't affect ANYTHING he was doing. I feel NO pity for somebody that dives headfirst into something that they are clueless about, and it bites them in the butt.